[tonyh]

Guys,
i thought you might be interested in this link. It shows a 355 cam belt change in situ being done. The car pictured isn't mine, but my belts and an annual were done in situ using the same method on Monday with me sitting in the shop watching.
I'd be interested in any comments. The link has been posted on the other Ferrari chat boards i subscribe to .
http://homepage.mac.com/ajm7/belts/

[Andrew]

Thanks for the link. Verdi does some nice work, do you have your Ferrari serviced by them?

[tonyh]

Andrew,
this is the first time since the car was "born " in '96 it's been outside a main dealer for anything !

[k wright]

This looks like the new "standard" for belt maintenance. Is there any reason you would use the method of removing the motor?

ken

[Spasso]

Not that I am an expert on anything but if all one wanted to do was to change the belts and tensioners then I guess this would be an acceptable alternative to removing the engine but when doing a complete and proper 30k service it is recommended and required to remove the engine to adjust the valves, replace any seals that may be leaking, (cam, cam covers, pan gaskets etc.....) to rebuild or replace the water pump as needed and to replace hard to get to hoses and fittings.

An engine out also gives the opportunity to change axle boots and differential seals.

Last but not least, a chance to clean and detail the engine.

There are many brokers out there that would call this engine-in belt service a 30k when in fact it is not. It's just a belt change which leaves the door open for many other potential problems that WILL guarantee an engine out service for the next owner (or present owner).

"You can pay me now or pay me later"

[Stradale]

I showed this to my workshop supervisor, but he's rather sceptical. If it's not recommended by Ferrari it is not done.

Can't save the few bucks. :P

[k wright]

Not sure about other models but the F355 has hydralic tapets that are not adjustable. If other issues exist that would require the removal of the motor and transaxle then I'm for it. If not this looks like a great alternative. I'm not worried about the cost, I'm worried about someone mucking around in a car that was well assembled and is working well.

ken

[tonyh]

Originally Posted by Stradale

I showed this to my workshop supervisor, but he's rather sceptical. If it's not recommended by Ferrari it is not done.

Can't save the few bucks. :P

In fact, the Official FERRARI online manual i was shown by Verdi recommends this job to be done IN SITU . Time allocated 7.8 hours . How does this compare to engine out service? Probably save 20 hours labour....?
The car is'96 build and has been with Main Dealers until this belt change. I thought long and hard about whether to have the work done in situ.This isn't about saving a few £ as i'm able to pay for an engine out job. It's about showing the Ferrari community, through my experience, that the engine CAN be safely left in place for this work.

[Stradale]

I'll get the workshop manager to e-mail the factory on this.

[fana348 France]

Originally Posted by tonyh

Guys,
i thought you might be interested in this link. It shows a 355 cam belt change in situ being done. The car pictured isn't mine, but my belts and an annual were done in situ using the same method on Monday with me sitting in the shop watching.
I'd be interested in any comments. The link has been posted on the other Ferrari chat boards i subscribe to .
http://homepage.mac.com/ajm7/belts/

Very interesting you article.
Me I can not easylly pay for a Ferrari
service for belt changing....It is certainly very well done but too much expansive...so I do evrything myself and would be interested by a same article for 348
thanks.
nico

[arjuna44]

when i click on the site all i get is a mac mobile me website requiring a login name and password????

love to see the in situ article i've got a 355.

just found out the water pump went. any way this in not an out of body, out of bank or car experience.

[Gcalo]

I would like to see that as well. It is a clever process. I believe the gas tank is removed for access?

I am certainly in favor of saving work and $ to achieve a goal.

I don't know of any other brand where the engine needs removal for belt changes.

Thank goodness that changed with the 360.

[chaz]

I have done both engine in and out many times of a different 355 cars. there can pros and cons on both procedures.
Though no cars that i know of with the engine in procedure have ever had any issues. Every thing can be got to very easly. Changing the belts and tensioners is a simple procedure with no mystery.
The only issue is all the wingers and moaners who say that "the propper way"...bla,bla,bla And they have never even done the engine in job
I have done both procedures and its all good in my book.

[Boxer]

Originally Posted by chaz

I have done both engine in and out many times of a different 355 cars. there can pros and cons on both procedures.
Though no cars that i know of with the engine in procedure have ever had any issues. Every thing can be got to very easly. Changing the belts and tensioners is a simple procedure with no mystery.
The only issue is all the wingers and moaners who say that "the propper way"...bla,bla,bla And they have never even done the engine in job
I have done both procedures and its all good in my book.

How many hours do you save by changing the belts with the engine in ?

[Gcalo]

Originally Posted by Boxer

How many hours do you save by changing the belts with the engine in ?

That has to be a big time savings on a 355!

Makes plenty of sense as well.

[chaz]

Originally Posted by Boxer

How many hours do you save by changing the belts/tensioner with the engine in ?

You know what it takes maybe 3-4 hours all in from start to end to do the belt with the engine in. But is not necessarily about just saving time. An engine out is not a necessary straight forward process. And yes i know that the argument is that one can check and clean every thing with the engine out and yes that is correct of course, but the same can be said about the 360 engine that have the belts done while the engines in situ. But the question is just about changing the belts on the 355 and tensioners and noting else.
But on the flip side there is an argument that taking the engine out can disturb wiring looms that can cause running problems. Also i have also heard that some are blaming some of the 355 fires on the fact that the fuel tank is disconnected from the car so causing problems with the fuel lines once fitted back onto the car. Well the exact thing can be said when removing the engine and undoing the very same fuel lines.
Another cry that one usually hears is the "Engine designed to come out" cry.
Oh really, well its my opinion that anything bolted together is designed to come apart. And there are two of the 12 17mm bolts that hold the engine cradle to the monocope that are a pain in the arse to get to because of the angle and tightness of the location. So the designed to drop the engine out bit is not as straight forward as it seems.
Heres an interesting correlation regarding the "do it properly as the factory intended" chest nut. Take the F355s fly wheel. A Ferrari official dealer will just pump the flywheel grease into the flywheel with out removing/cleaning or stripping the wheel, via the two allen bolts at the rear of the flywheel. This is done with out weighing or measuring the amount of Kluber grease, just pump it in there.
Were as the new current procedure developed by the home DIY servicers and now a lot of the indies is to strip down the flywheel and clean and measure the amount of grease that is put into the flywheel rplacing all 7 seals.......But hang on....this is not the official Ferrari method of re greasing the flywheel But i don't hear anyone crying about "doing it the factory way" about this method, makes sense? I mean just you try ordering the large rubber flywheel sealing ring and the 6 smaller ones from your official Ferrari dealer and take a look at the WTF! face that they pull as they try to locate the part from there parts computer
Like i said i an totally neutral because i have done both methods more than once. And facts are facts as far as i am concerned.
Right then that should start the pissers moaning

[chaz]

I am going to list what i think is the pros and cons of belts done in situ.
I am doing this to stimulate conversation and not for attacks. Remember that i have personally done both methods so i am giving my opinion. I have not really come across anyone like my self who can see the benefits of both methods through actually doing both methods. Its either one camp or the other, which IMO is narrow minded because again IMO both methods are good.
Please feel free to add to the lists of Pros and Cons. Also feel free to state if you have found this out from experience or theory/hearsay.



ENGINE IN FORS
1/ Shorter timed job.
2/ Every thing at the front of the engine can be got at and checked, even the water pump.
3/ No wiring looms to disturb apart from the two crank sensors. (Disturbing the engine looms by engine removal can some times cause problems when the car restarts.)
4/ Air conditioner fluid does not have to be drained.
5/ Break lines does not have to be split/filled/bleed.
6/ Cam covers can still be removed and painted (i know people like to do this)


ENGINE IN AGAINST.
1/ Cant check and degree the cams.
2/ Cant strip the engine down to its basic parts to check/clean and replace.

[Boxer]

From the check writing end of the proceedure, my only comment would be that every time the engine was pulled on either the F355, 365 BB, or 512 BB, there were always a few minor problems that suddenly surfaced shrtly after the service. Loose fuel lines, electrical issues, radiator fans not working, etc

[gothspeed]

Great thread with great points ! ......... I too have had a long time ferrari/lambo mechanic say it is really not a major deal to change them in 'situ' ......

[chaz]

Originally Posted by gothspeed

Great thread with great points ! ......... I too have had a long time ferrari/lambo mechanic say it is really not a major deal to change them in 'situ' ......

But you know me brother, i often blow it out me backside LOL!!!!
And ey. You better not let Rifledriver hear you say that, or he will be on his horse